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gordonliv
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1#
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(Date Posted:06/01/2007 19:04:19)
There are two religions which make some sort of sense to me. I have no engagement with either of them, but I can see their good points. The first is Buddhism (or at least certain parts or traits of Buddhism) and I really do intend to read that "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" book. There's nothing wrong with meditation... I hear it's very good for calming the soul and smoothing brain activity.
The other one is Sun-worship. In spite of it being the root of virtually all of today's somewhat more stupid religions (Christianity included), I can see the reasoning behind the idea of Sun-worship (and by "Sun-worship", I do not mean lying on a beach in Ibiza getting frazzled). After all, the Sun is the giver of all things good to the planet, isn't it? Without the Sun none of us, nor indeed our planet, would be here. So Sun-worship is very understandable, if a little misguided.
As for being "anti-Church but pro-Christianity", me not included, I'm afraid. I'm anti-Church and anti-Christianity. And anti-Islam. And anti-Judaism. And just about all the other religions you care to name.
At least in the case of Sun-worship, you can see the deity!
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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Shadowself
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2#
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(Date Posted:07/01/2007 02:01:05)
Reply to : franknhonest
If you believe Christianity is true, is there a church you know of which clearly portrays it?Is it really feasible to be 'anti-church' but 'pro-Christianity'? What does church today say about Christianity as a religion?Two questions - any answers?
Well, I no longer believe that Christianity is true, but in the interests of sparking this thread up, I shall answer as I would have when I was an evangelical believer.
1. By church, I am assuming you mean either a denomination, or a congregation. By Christianity, I am assuming you mean one's belief in Jesus Christ and one's actions which spring from that belief. Denominations/congregations do not clearly portray Christianity, because they are established and run on a business model. They are more like a corporation, concerned with remaining solvent and staying on the up and up with government, the community, etc. Chrisianity is supposed to be a relationship with God through Jesus Christ on a personal level, thus one needs to look at individual Christians to attempt to find someone clearly living it. The Christian would be more concerned with staying true to Christ than with his/her reputation with the community or trying to start up a "corporate church".
2. You can be anti-church yet pro-Christianity, if by that you mean being against the false model of "church as a corporation". The true church is the invisible body of believers. All Christians are members of this church. Whenever two or three gather together, you have a visable form of the church. They can meet in a special building, rent a room, or simply get together in someone's house. It's not a religion--it's a relationship.
The above is what I would have said 7 years ago. My dissatisfaction at that time was more with the church than Christianity, though I was starting to change my views on that too. It took me another year to finally leave my church, and one more year to reexamine the background and teachings of the belief system to realize that it no longer held meaning for me and that I didn't believe it any more.
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A big revelation in my professional training was that humans can learn skills for living and relating. We don"t have to be desperate for a miracle of God to make us decent.--Marlene Winell
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gordonliv
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3#
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(Date Posted:07/01/2007 03:39:38)
And what Shadowself says there is interesting because it points up two fundamental questions for me about the way "Christianity" is very often talked about.
1.
Christians always use this phrase "through Jesus Christ". They say things like, "The only way to know God is "through Jesus Christ." Now what, exactly, does this mean? I mean, I know my friend Bob because my friend Fred introduced me to him. So therefore I know Bob through Fred. That's not difficult... it implies that had I not known Fred, it's unlikely (but by no means impossible) that I'd know Bob. But hang on a minute. I might have met Bob by some other means... maybe through Tim or Sue... or maybe I'd just have found him by myself!
So when Christians say, "The only way to know God is "through Jesus Christ," they can't be sure of that, can they? And I reckon Jews might have a word or two to say about that too.
When I was born, I had no knowledge or experience of either God or Jesus. So how can a Christian say to me that the only way to know God is "through Jesus Christ"? Neither God nor Jesus were known to me at my birth, and both of them appeared to me (in cultural terms, at least!) at the same time. I was told in Church and in Sunday School that the only way to know God was through Jesus, but I wasn't told what the possible alternatives were. What does that say about Christianity?
It says that Christianity views itself as just one of a number of possible paths. It says that Christianity acknowledges its need to compete for the hearts and minds of humans. It says that Christianity recognises that it perhaps is not the only "truth" that people might follow. It says that Christianity is afraid. It is afraid that people might choose other paths.
2.
Christianity always talks of Jesus Christ being my "saviour". That means Jesus has "saved" me from something. Er... saved me from what, exactly?
Saved me from Hell? But why do I need to be saved from Hell? God is the almighty... he is omnipotent (i.e. all-powerful). Therefore, if he wanted to, he could just destroy Hell. He could just blink his all-powerful eyes, and... pow!... Hell would be gone... never to trouble us sinning humans again. Why does he have to send a son of his to die just so that I don't have to go to one of God's own creations...Hell? And let's face it... Jesus - if he were supposed to be my saviour - would be a lot more use to me alive than dead.
Come on Christians... this just doesn't add up.
If God doesn't want me to go to Hell, he should destroy Hell. And he can. So why doesn't he?
And if the only way to know God is through Jesus Christ, how can Jews or Moslems claim to know him? And believe me, Christians, they
really do claim to know him.
The most believable church? Hmmm... well, it's not the Christian one, is it?
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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merciful evans
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4#
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(Date Posted:07/01/2007 10:45:21)
I too used to be taken with buddism. I was never a convert, but used to meditate. I read some stuff too (Judge Christamas Humphies was very interesting) though 'Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence', despite being a very good read, has nothing to do with zen buddism.
I do remember a disclaimer on the book, which reads something like 'This book has nothing to do with zen buddism. It is not very factual about motorcycles either'.
Buddism has a lot to offer an introvert. There is no deity of course, which is a blessing (Hey I just made up a zen koan!).
What I could never accept is this business of reincarnation, which is a precept of course.
I like the idea of sun worship. It would be easier in Barbados though.
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i sometimes think, therefore i am intermittent
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gordonliv
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5#
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(Date Posted:07/01/2007 17:19:52)
Wow!
Well, thanks for the warning. I thought the book was about Buddhism! Perhaps I'd be better off reading the owner's manual for a Kawasaki GT550.
I do like the idea of reincarnation though. I'm sure in a previous life I was God.
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merciful evans
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6#
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(Date Posted:08/01/2007 09:21:38)
Reply to : gordonliv
I do like the idea of reincarnation though. I'm sure in a previous life I was God.
So this is your penance for an ill spent quasi-eternity huh?ffice ffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Tell me, was it true about you and that Mary woman? or did that Joseph just tic you off once too often?
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i sometimes think, therefore i am intermittent
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Anonymous
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7#
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Registered:06/04/2001
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(Date Posted:17/01/2007 17:02:20)
$%*'`[Paladin]%*'`@ Actually, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is about a philosophical concept of Quality, or more specifically the metaphysics of quality. To understand the Pirsig's little Chataqua a brief understanding of Zen is helpful.
Now, to the idea of Christianity: There is the thought that our original "sin" isn't a terrible thing that gets God all riled up and wants to destroy us, rather that we are born with a sense of separation from God, or absolute reality. We tend to see things in terms of Subject and Object which Zen tells us is an illusion.
This sense of a separate "me" or Ego is really the root of all evils in the world. If you think about it, no one who felt a oneness with all of life and the ultimate reality could ever commit an evil act. No more than the Buddha or Christ could have. If the Christ is a state of consciousness (the things I do so shall you also, and much greater than these) Then it stands to reason that you must enter into that state of consciousness on the path toward God. Therefore " No one comes unto the Father but through me" becomes, " no one attains God awareness unless they become as me"
Peace
Mark
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gordonliv
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8#
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(Date Posted:18/01/2007 03:13:40)
What is it with this airy-fairy talk that Christians give us? Christ is a "state of consciousness"? The "ultimate reality"? The "path toward God"?
What is all this stuff?
Christ, according to the Bible, was not a state of consciousness. He was a bloke. He spoke and he walked. He certainly ate and drank, and so we can surmise from that that he probably went to the toilet too. Divine poo. There's some circumstantial evidence that he enjoyed sexual jollies, and not always with women. He was apparently borne by a woman - although that poor lady, according to scripture, had none of the fun that usually precedes a pregnancy.
But then there's a powerful body of opinion that asserts that he never actually existed anyway, and the myth of Jesus is arrived at in holy scripture by conflating the stories and existences two or more different Jewish warriors around the time of Jesus's alleged life.
And what is the "ultimate reality"? Is it something more real than something which is real? If you ask me, God and Jesus are somewhat less real than most of the stuff I know about. And what in a "reality" defines it as "ultimate"?
And what's this "path toward God"? Should I be walking along it? Why? What will happen if I don't?
Why do I need to find God? What possible purpose could he serve for me? Am I not doing just fine without him? I mean, going to church every Sunday, or doing stuff like Bible study will take up a lot of my time - some of which I currently spend contributing to this forum! So given that so far I'm doing all right - some ups, some downs, but mostly OK - why waste my time on trying to find God? I don't need to travel along the "path toward God". So why waste my time doing it? God - assuming for a moment that he exists (!) - has provided reasonably nicely for me. And I don't even believe in him! Strange how he gives a fair wind to a non-believer!
So, all you Christians... could you explain your "ultimate reality" to me a bit more clearly? And try to make this "ultimate reality" a bit more... er... real?
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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Anonymous
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9#
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Registered:06/04/2001
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 01:52:19)
$%*'`[Paladin]%*'`@ (sigh)
I don't think there is a way to explain an experience you are intent on not having. Abraham Maslow had much to say on that subject.
BTW friend, your signature reveals a classic fallacy of logic and if your'e going to be a good atheist , it would be good to study logic.
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gordonliv
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10#
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 02:21:17)
Of course there is!
There is a very simple way to explain an experience I'm intent on not having! You just... er... explain it! It's not difficult!
For example: I do not intend to do a parachute jump. I have never done one and have no plans to do so in the future. Yet I know many people who have done parachute jumps. They are perfectly capable of explaining the process, the training, the experience and the memories. It's not hard!
You're simply adding weight to the momentum of my argument. More woolly, wussy talk... saying things like, "Oh, you wouldn't understand," or "You have to believe in order to comprehend...". Religious fallacies hiding behing nebulous language... as usual.
What on God's clean Earth are you talking about? I can understand. I speak English. I'm not (very) stupid. Now come on... explain yourself! Explain your assertions and beliefs in simple, straightforward English. If you can.
And anyway, what makes you think I want to be a good atheist? Maybe I want to be a really, really bad atheist!
[sigh].
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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Anonymous
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11#
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Registered:06/04/2001
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 03:29:52)
Well, I suppose you could be any kind of atheist you choose, but most atheists understand reason and logic. Using a fallacy called "begging the question" doesn't add to your credibility.
Describing anothers language in pejorative terms isn't conducive to good dialogue. I don't get the idea that you are sincere about wanting to know anything about the metaphyscial or mystical experience. In fact it seems plain that you merely want sport. If that is the case maybe you need to find your entertainment in a less erudite environment. I hear pro wrestling is quite popular now.
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gordonliv
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 03:51:18)
Yep!
I want sport! Bring it on, Christian! Come out of your corner!
And no, I don't want my sport in a less erudite environment. I want it in a more erudite environment... where people know the correct use of apostrophe's.
Come on... let me at your "mystical experience"... I'll have it in a half-nelson for a count of ten in the first round!
Grrr!
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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Anonymous
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13#
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Registered:06/04/2001
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 04:20:30)
You might have to explain the use of apostrophes since you use it in the posessive case. And what makes you think I'm Christian?
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Anonymous
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 04:22:24)
As far as having the mystical experience in the "half-nelson" as you so quaintly put it, how is it you propose to repudiate a subjective experience? Surely you have studed William James?
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gordonliv
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15#
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 04:28:10)
Reply to : Anonymous
You might have to explain the use of apostrophes since you use it in the posessive case.
I really, really can't believe you fell for that one!
Oh, rapture!
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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Anonymous
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16#
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Registered:06/04/2001
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 04:29:55)
Ah I see now, you were only pretending to be stupid! Imagine my relief.
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gordonliv
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17#
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 04:30:48)
And, by the way...
You spelt "possessive" wrong!
Lions 10, Christians NIL!
N.B. That's actually a Richard Dawkins quote. But you wouldn't know that, so I'll point it out to you for your edification. I'm sympathetic like that!
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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Anonymous
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18#
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 04:38:36)
Yes, you are quite right I did misspell possessive. But again I ask, what makes you think I'm Christian?
I'm also familiar with Dawkins work, usually a good read, but let's face it a fallacy is a fallacy. Now, should you care to engage me in other than a sophomoric fashion I might consider it a challenge. As it stands you haven't presented anything of worth.
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gordonliv
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19#
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 04:54:29)
"Dawkins" should have had an apostrophe after it.
Oh dear.
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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gordonliv
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20#
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 04:58:02)
Hang on...
It's just hit me! NOW I know what it is that makes me think you're a Christian!
Incoherence and inability with the English language! Classic Christian traits!
Phew! I thought I'd never get there!
Thank God for that!
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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Anonymous
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21#
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 05:01:30)
Like I said, if you have anything substantive to discuss we can begin. As far as my failure with the language, if you can give me an example, define the shortcoming and then provide the correct usage you are simply blowing wind.
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gordonliv
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22#
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 05:04:16)
Oh, don't take on so.
Where's your sense of humour?
Come on then... let's begin. This God fella of yours... what a tosser, eh?
Your move.
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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Anonymous
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23#
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 05:07:46)
If I were limited to the idea of God as espoused by so many juridical zealots I would be a sorry case indeed. The whole Christian Model is nothing but pure hogwash as far as I am concerned. Imagine some capricious, sadistic being who tells you he loves you but will send you to an eternity of torment just the same.
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gordonliv
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24#
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 05:17:19)
I've imagined that for years. And it makes no sense.
A god who makes no sense? Correct. A god who makes no sense.
Therefore, he does not exist. Case closed.
There. That didn't take long, did it?
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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Anonymous
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25#
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Registered:06/04/2001
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 05:23:50)
Yes, the god who makes no sense could not exist that is correct.
But it would be a gross mistake, a pure fallacy to say that since our concept of God makes no sense then there could not be a God.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc ?
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gordonliv
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26#
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 05:33:27)
Why a "gross" mistake?
A mistake, perhaps... but why a gross one? God only exists in human minds. Horses, pigs, mosquitoes, bacteria etc... do not worship God. Yet their existence carries on regardless. If humans were to stop worshipping God tomorrow, their existences would carry on nonetheless. How do I know this? Because there are other gods who humans stopped worshipping a long time ago. There's very good circumstantial evidence to suggest that to stop worshipping - or even believing in - God will do nothing to halt our existence or progress.
So even assuming (ha!) that God exists... he only exists in human minds, and if we were to stop worshipping or believing in him, not a lot would happen to us here on this planet. It might be (but probably isn't) a mistake to assume he's not there, but it's certainly not a "gross" one.
Life will go on - history teaches us that with a great certainty!
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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Anonymous
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27#
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Registered:06/04/2001
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 05:39:33)
It is only a gross mistake because to use that particular argument would have Aristotle rolling in his grave. Remember the syllogism?
I agree about the God you speak of, notice that even you use the word "he" when speaking of God. See how a cultural meme this has become?Most religions have a very quaint way of looking at what might be called "Ultimate reality" I say ultimate to describe what Kant was pointing to in his idea of the thing-in-itself or Noumena.
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gordonliv
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28#
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(Date Posted:19/01/2007 05:52:44)
I use the male pronoun "he" for reasons of convenience only. It says in the Bible that God has a womb, so we're into really hermaphrodite territory when we deal with this fella. And he had a son of highly dubious sexuality too.
If God only exists in human minds, then us atheists are in the clear. All we do is choose not to believe in him and - pow! - he's gone. No more God. And thank God for that!
I don't see any advantage in believing in God. In fact, I see many disadvantages in believing in him/her/it. Other people may wrestle with the concept of God; I don't. He's not there, and I can prove it. Yes, I ALONE in this world can prove a negative.
Aristotle would be pleased with me... drunkard that he was.
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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kiwimac
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29#
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Registered:28/12/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:27/01/2007 19:25:44)
So is this the English language thread?
Or ( <--- Note grammatical naughtiness!) is it a discussion of how one can be religious but not church / Synagogue / Mosque-going.
Enlighten me, o Wise ones!
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"... To the question, who is my neighbour? I reply as did my Master by the example that He gave: "the alien and the heretic" "
Rev. Frederick W. Robertson
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gordonliv
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30#
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(Date Posted:29/01/2007 01:06:25)
To be honest the discussions seem to drift from one area of debate to another. I can't remember what this thread was originally about!
I'm not in charge round here, but my guess is that you can discuss pretty much what you want - if it has any particular relevance to going to (or not going to) church, then so much the better. If you are religious but not a church-goer you'll probably fit in quite well. If you're not religious and not a church-goer you may fit in a little better. And if you're not religious but ARE a church-goer that's just weird.
And the corect use of English is one of my favrit sujbects.
Anyway, on with the debate...
What's your favourite flavour of ice cream?
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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