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gordonliv
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1#
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Rank:none
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Registered:05/09/2006
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(Date Posted:16/09/2006 04:17:39)
I didn't see that programme (wish I had - sounds interesting) but it does appear that the programme - or at least your pr?is of it - misses out one very important factor in human psychology... the desire to be right.
I find and deal with this element of peoples' behaviour every day. It leads to arguments, entrenchment, spite and vehement dislike. "I'm right and you're wrong" is the basic tenet of this strand of human thinking. It's not limited to religious thinking - I find it all over the shop. My close relatives are expert practioners!
It's a very destructive and unhelpful characteristic in people, but I'm sure we all recognise it - even within ourselves. I try to keep this characteristic of my personality very much in check; I'm open minded, persuade-able and I hear all sides, but still I want to be right. This leads me, from time to time, to change my point of view. Usually mildly, and usually in an "evolutionary" fashion (i.e. there are no "Road to Damascus" conversions in my personal history), but I can change my mind when given persuasive and cogent arguments.
The problem arises, I guess, when this desire to be right is bound up with God and the Bible (or the Koran), which then makes rational discourse off limits. We're not allowed to question someone's "deeply held beliefs", even if we think the beliefs they hold are stupid. The touble with God and religion is, it validates indignance. People are then able to hide behind this veil of protection no matter how extreme or ridiculous their beliefs are, because they can take offence if you dare to question them. If we say, "Please justify your beliefs and behaviour," they scream "Blasphemer!" at us and either execute us or accuse us of racism, intolerance or what have you.
It's not fair. We want sensible answers to legitimate questions. We don't want to be accused of racism. I'm not racist, but I am - legitimately - intolerant of religious hatred, violence, murder and dictatorship. It's bad and it should be stopped. Don't hide your disgusting attitudes or behaviour behind some sort of "untouchable" "deeply held belief". And, by the way, that goes for Christian fundamentalism as well as Islamic fundamentalism and Zionism.
Christian fundamentalists can justify their "endtime" beliefs (and therefore by extension behaviour) by reading the Bible. But the Bible is littered with contradiction and double-standards. Can we succeed in pointing this out to them? We can but try...
The Bible advocates death by stoning. It advoctaes punitive amputations. It implies Jesus was a homosexual (note: implies, not states). It demands genital mutilation. It states men lived to be eight hundred and more years old. It states that God made 193,000 stars every second for a continuous period of six days. Oh, come on...
To all the Christian fundamentalists in the Western world, I ask this: do you want death by stoning and hand amputations for adultery to be written into constitutional law? If you answer "yes" then you have no place in my society. Get out.
If you answer "no" then you are rejecting part of the Bible... the word of God. So take your ability to reject some the word of God, and for God's sake reject the rest of it as well. It's primitive, uneducated, foolish, dangerous and violent.
The Bible does not belong in today's society.
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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gordonliv
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2#
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Rank:none
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Registered:05/09/2006
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(Date Posted:16/09/2006 19:52:08)
Like I say, I didn't see the programme but on the Channel 4 website there's a fairly lengthy resum?of it.
Oh, God... who are these people? They're not just crazy or scary, they're very, very dangerous. And to think that it's all because of a writer holed up in a cave and tripping on magic mushrooms! This sort of stuff goes beyond being just laughable or even worrying. It's sickening and frightening.
Thank God Bush is going... although we need to hope that we don't get anyone as bad or even worse in his stead. I don't know what the rest of the English contingent of this forum think, but I don't think we've got it as bad over here, as far as mixing religion and politics is concerned. I'm beginning to wonder if Blair's claims about being judged by God for the war in Iraq were more sinister than foolish. It wasn't an attempt to get God into British politics, was it? Let's hope not. But it failed anyway... I think most people just thought he was an utter twit. I think that over there in the States Bush is far less reticent about bringing Big 'G' to bear on his political manouvres.
Neither Bush nor Blair will be around much longer. Let's hope rational thought and separation of religion and state will prevail after they've gone.
For anyone interested, the Channel 4 page is here:
http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/doomsday.html
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gordonliv
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3#
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(Date Posted:18/09/2006 13:11:28)
Oh, holy sh*t!
As if endtimers weren't depressing enough. Take a look at this!
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2455343&page=1
It really makes me feel sick to my stomach. Those poor kids.
Well, I suppose we can all rest assured that God personified has at last landed on Earth, exactly as he promised he would. Just a shame he looks identical to George W. Bush.
If I were God I'd come down looking like Brad Pitt!
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gordonliv
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4#
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(Date Posted:23/09/2006 03:44:48)
There's another, slightly different, video about Jesus Camp available online here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE
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gordonliv
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5#
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(Date Posted:23/09/2006 04:25:13)
Actually, I posted that last comment before I'd read some of the responses to that video on the YouTube website. I've now read a few of them.
Have a look at the video (and the other one I linked to earlier) and then read some of the comments on YouTube. Some of those responses come from Christians, and even they are not happy!
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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franknhonest
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6#
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Registered:29/08/2001
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(Date Posted:25/09/2006 01:29:05)
Jesus Camp - that's one revealing movie. Can't wait to watch it. I know charismatics/pentecostals are off their rocker but brainwashing and emotionally manipulating children is inexcusable. Where will these kids be in 10, 20 years time?
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gordonliv
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7#
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Registered:05/09/2006
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(Date Posted:25/09/2006 02:50:37)
Dead, if that YouTube trailer is anything to go by.
Stomach-churning, isn't it?
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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Anonymous
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8#
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Registered:06/04/2001
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(Date Posted:06/10/2006 18:24:48)
$%*'`[ISRAFIL? FRIEND]%*'`@ "Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity."
Marshall McLuhan
Who or what is "666" REALLY?
SPREAD TO THE WHOLE PLANET EARTH....
Clicko on here to LEARN:
http://www.gaiaguys.net/666.htm
ISAIAH 7: 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel.
In the name of Creation, the wise, the righteous.
CULT RELIGION
"The most sordid pretext of maximum power in the name of false and mendacious love that literally walks over dead bodies wihout hesitation or scruple.
"Backed by the false doctrine of the New Testament, the Christian cult religion meddles in the politics of all countries. Moreover, it is not embarrassed to interfere in the most intimate family life of human beings --even in the bed of marriage partners--in order even there to attack and destroy the last and most private secrets of human beings.
Now finally has come the time when a stop can be put to all these unscrupulous activities, if man becomes sensible enough, revises his thinking and devotes himself to the real teachings of Jmmanuel. In all likelihood, all those who have bashed their heads against the brick wall of the cult religions deceitful madness and are therefore no longer capable of normal and sensible thinking, will fight and oppose it with all means; and yet, their desperate fight will be in vain because truth will be stronger than any cult-religious mania or dirty lie, even though the lie has been in existence for thousands of years. The scandalous falsehoods of cult religions will now be shattered and destroyed for good, no matter how much the cult religions and all their followers and advocates rebel against it. Finally truth will be victorious, even though it must be secured through great struggles, as it has been written in the Scriptures, which say that the truth will provoke a worldwide catastrophe. However, truth is required and must no longer be silenced. A catastrophe will be understandable if one considers that the cult religions have attained immense power, which so far has enabled them to suppress, with murderous and sordid means, all truths directed against them. They will again attempt to do this, even if it means indulging in murder as has often been the case in the past." - Billy Meier, Talmud Jmmanuel, Introduction
Nothing but the Truth here--->>: http://www.gaiaguys.net/666.htm
Spread the word.
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gordonliv
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9#
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Registered:05/09/2006
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(Date Posted:06/10/2006 18:59:04)
What a lovely website! I simply must join you!
How much of my money would you like?
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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franknhonest
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10#
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Rank:none
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(Date Posted:06/10/2006 19:40:23)
I'm trying to clamp down on this guy, as his messages are disturbing the flow of other threads as well. I've suggested he start his own thread on the subject of 666.
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merciful evans
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(Date Posted:16/10/2006 10:54:32)
"This is an enormous youth movement," said Lauren Sandler, a secular, liberal feminist from New York City who spent months among the believers researching her new book, "Righteous."
Recalls to mind another youth movement.
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i sometimes think, therefore i am intermittent
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gordonliv
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12#
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(Date Posted:16/10/2006 11:30:25)
Which one?
Or have I failed to read a subtext here?
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La_Mala
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13#
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(Date Posted:16/10/2006 11:34:44)
Nazis maybe? Although thats just a guess.
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gordonliv
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14#
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(Date Posted:16/10/2006 16:01:43)
Oh, yeah... of course. Scary stuff, huh?
You really should go back a few posts and get the link to those "Jesus Camp" videos on YouTube and ABC News. That'll really scare you. Was it Jesus Camp that Lauren Sandler was talking about? Or yet another puke-inducing religious entrapment for the American kids?
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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Anonymous
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15#
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Registered:06/04/2001
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(Date Posted:26/02/2007 16:09:20)
$%*'`[bigd]%*'`@ 'Chap Clark, an associate professor at the Fuller Theological Seminary who's trained youth pastors for decades, said people who see "Jesus Camp" should not come away with the idea that evangelizing to youth consists mainly of political indoctrination.
Clark said youth pastors focus much more on providing meaning to kids who can't find it in a materialistic culture or in their family lives ? "which is going to translate into much healthier adults who are more able to be into respectful dialogue and come alongside people who disagree with them.'
This was from the article that you pointed to gordon. What are your thoughts on what Chap Clark says?
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Aushawster
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16#
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Registered:19/01/2007
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(Date Posted:26/02/2007 18:07:29)
Reply to : bigd [Anonymous]
..... translate into much healthier adults who are more able to be into respectful dialogue and come alongside people who disagree with them.'
Hi BigD,
I'm Rob,
It is often difficult to have respectful dialogue with people of faith because there is a clarity in which I see the improbability of a god.
There is no god gene. We were all born agnostic. It in only through exposure, brainwashing or indoctrination of a god during formative years as children that their belief of a supernatural god appears natural to them.
Your morality argument is one of the most common given by the faithfull.That explains Americas high crime & bible rate. Poverty, greed, religion and lack of education are the best reasons for a lack of morality . Do you not think it is possible for parents to teach their children right from wrong without having to lie to them about a heaven and hell? Or try to bend science to protect the ilogic of their holey holys. Wouldn't it be better to tell children we have to share the world with other people, We have to learn to get along? I don't (usually) go on bible groups and try to push my atheism. Just what are you doing here?
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Blasphemy is a victimless crime
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Anonymous
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17#
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Registered:06/04/2001
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(Date Posted:26/02/2007 22:17:45)
$%*'`[bigd]%*'`@ Reply to : Aushawster
I don't (usually) go on bible groups and try to push my atheism. Just what are you doing here?
I stumbled across this website when I was looking at something else. The name anti-church sounded interesting so I thought I'd check it out. I read quite a few posts and thought some to be intelligent, some to be funny, and some to be mean (from both sides). And I'm sure you have heard this before that I'm not here to convert anybody, its obvious if I did try it wouldnt work. I guess I am just interested in dialogue. I'm not trying to be pushy. I do happen to think that intelligent discussion can take place between differing sides.
How would we achieve peace if differing sides cannot talk intelligently? And if the whole world were athiest, it does not mean that the whole world would be peaceful and good. Many people are only in this world for themselves and do not take the time to have concern for others. I think it is possible for parents to teach their children right from wrong without using heaven or hell. The problem is that we dont have many homes with two parents, and most parents are too busy being grown-up kids to worry about raising their own kids. I think it is a good thing to teach kids to share the world. It is a good thing to get along with others.
Read "Old Turtle and the Broken Truth" by Douglass Wood. It is not a religious book. It is a childrens book, but it has some very adult concepts that children need to learn.
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Aushawster
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18#
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(Date Posted:27/02/2007 01:05:50)
Reply to : bigd [Anonymous]
I'm not trying to be pushy. I do happen to think that intelligent discussion can take place between differing sides.How would we achieve peace if differing sides
If you are here to out of curiosity, and to listen as well as talk, then you are a lot stranger then most of our religious guests. (that is a compliment or sorts) "most parents are too busy being grown-up kids to worry about raising their own kids." Does it always have to be an issue of only one of two boxes people have to fit into? My negative attitudes towards religion is partly due to the label of "immoral" the religious try to put on us non - believers. USA Today voted us the least trusted group in America. Here is an MP3 on a great debate "America is too Damn Religious".
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Blasphemy is a victimless crime
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merciful evans
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19#
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(Date Posted:27/02/2007 11:59:51)
Reply to : bigd [Anonymous]
I'm sure you have heard this before that I'm not here to convert anybody, its obvious if I did try it wouldnt work. I guess I am just interested in dialogue. I'm not trying to be pushy. I do happen to think that intelligent discussion can take place between differing sides.How would we achieve peace if differing sides
Well said bigd, I may have been guilty of tarring you with the same brush as other theists. I appologise. You have a refreshing attitude.
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i sometimes think, therefore i am intermittent
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Anonymous
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20#
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Registered:06/04/2001
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(Date Posted:28/02/2007 00:45:26)
$%*'`[bigd]%*'`@ Here is an MP3 on a great debate "America is too Damn Religious".
I agree with the Rev. Barry Lynn. I for one am glad their is no prayer in schools. I think the 10 commandments should be out of courthouses and that the government should be free from religious debate. I think that when the church is too involved in the state you get the darkest moment in Christian history, the Crusades. When the government is too involved in religion you get the church of England. In no way shape or form should church and state be anything but separate. Churches should stand on their own two feet. I dont believe that so called 'morality issues' like abortion, homosexuality, etc... should be religious driven policy. I think that if church's care about those things they should do something themselves. This also goes into the role of government in general. I think America has a government that goes well beyond the boundaries a government should take.
I agree with Alan Wolfe's assessment that America and Americans are two different ideas and that religion is too invasive in the publis space. Going back to what Barry Lynn says, religious symbols on government property are ridiculous. I also agree that the 'Christian Right' has moved out of being a religious movement and turned into a political movement. In some sense, that movement is not much different that an Islamic jihad only less terrorizing.
Susan Jacoby also made very great points. William Galston also spoke well.
I think the engaged American statistics are not a great sign of why religion is good. It seems Susan Jacoby vs. William Galston point on whether most Christians are quiet or vocal and whether their belifes are tunnel visioned or tolerant is interesting mainly because we only here the vocal ones and they tend to be vocal about imposing their thoughts and rights on everyone else. Their does exist a group of Christians that do not have their eyes set on controlling the world, they just happen to be living in silence.
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Aushawster
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21#
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(Date Posted:28/02/2007 04:10:13)
Reply to : bigd [Anonymous]
Here is an MP3 on a great debate "America is too Damn Religious".
It was a solid debate. That line I got the most of a kick out of was "if Americans were more religious George W Bush would have never got in power." I think that was unanimous on both sides of the debate.. You don't have to agree with our position on god to see we play a nessesary and positive role in society especially in issues involving the extreme right and separation of church and state.
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Blasphemy is a victimless crime
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Anonymous
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22#
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Registered:06/04/2001
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(Date Posted:28/02/2007 05:00:42)
$%*'`[bigd]%*'`@ George W. Bush got elected because people didnt think for themselves. People still dont. People at my church actually like dubya. Bleh! I like him as a person but not as a president. What saddens me is that Kerry and Bush were what the American people saw as the two best people to run the country. or Al Gore for that matter. But I think the church should stay out of politics.
It is interesting that most of the poeple in the debate didnt discuss whether America was too religious or not but rather what role religion plays or should play. That is why most of them sounded as if they agreed on the issue.
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Shadowself
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23#
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(Date Posted:28/02/2007 08:35:53)
Reply to : bigd [Anonymous]
Their does exist a group of Christians that do not have their eyes set on controlling the world, they just happen to be living in silence.
They need to start opening their mouths, then, or they share part of the blame for their brethern.
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A big revelation in my professional training was that humans can learn skills for living and relating. We don"t have to be desperate for a miracle of God to make us decent.--Marlene Winell
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snakechic
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(Date Posted:06/03/2007 05:56:09)
Reply to : franknhonest
Jesus Camp - that's one revealing movie. Can't wait to watch it. I know charismatics/pentecostals are off their rocker but brainwashing and emotionally manipulating children is inexcusable. Where will these kids be in 10, 20 years time?
someone closed that 'camp' down...I recon they'd have to after all the fuss it caused. What an embarrassment?! .... Its a pity all the other camps are still operating and turning over big bucks for jesus.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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snakechic
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25#
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Registered:02/11/2004
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(Date Posted:06/03/2007 05:58:06)
Reply to : Shadowself
Reply to : bigd [Anonymous]Their does exist a group of Christians that do not have their eyes set on controlling the world, they just happen to be living in silence.They need to start opening their mouths, then, or they share part of the blame for their brethern.
I have to extend those fine words of wisdom....to include all christians sitting prettily perched on their pews.
try saying all that with a mawf full of crackers.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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gordonliv
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26#
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Rank:none
Score:988
Posts:988
Registered:05/09/2006
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(Date Posted:06/03/2007 12:47:47)
Foo imploov or Chriftianf fitting prippily pershed om vair poov.
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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gordonliv
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27#
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Rank:none
Score:988
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Registered:05/09/2006
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(Date Posted:06/03/2007 12:50:12)
Sorry; I'll sweep that up in a minute.
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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gordonliv
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28#
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Rank:none
Score:988
Posts:988
Registered:05/09/2006
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(Date Posted:11/03/2007 12:13:25)
Well, this is really interesting (not to mention a bit weird):
http://www.godmen.org/godmen07promo.mov
You know why Jesus had long hair? He was a bit of a rocker! I reckon he played a Fender Strat and rode a Harley...
Oh, that Bible. I t really can say whatever you want it to say, can't it?
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Can God make a stone which he cannot lift...?
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merciful evans
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29#
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Rank:none
Score:370
Posts:370
Registered:08/10/2006
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(Date Posted:11/03/2007 19:55:05)
Reply to : gordonliv
Oh, that Bible. I t really can say whatever you want it to say, can't it?
I recall you saying something about the english language being something you believe in. I suppose the OE dictionary would make a perfect book of faith. Every word in it is true and definitive. Its also up-issued regularly. American fundamentalists will probably break away & enshrine Websters though.
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i sometimes think, therefore i am intermittent
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snakechic
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30#
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Registered:02/11/2004
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(Date Posted:13/03/2007 04:31:34)
. American fundamentalists will probably break away & enshrine Websters though.
too true...
books "R" us. Inc.
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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince people that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy person living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, woman(man) is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.
-- George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
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